Amp . meter

  • March 20, 2016 4:06 PM
    Reply # 3892588 on 3889865

    Hey Norm , guys  . Yes this is very helpful . Through you guys and info from the web , I really like this guys site http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/deep_cycle_battery .

    Anyhow I certainly have a lot more info now than I did a few days ago . 

    So here is what I'm thinking , get a pair of Trojan scs 200s' they are  group 27 115 amp. hrs' or I could go with a pair of Trojan scs 225s' group 30 130 amp hrs' . (they are straight deep cycle batts. flooded)

    One thing I read on Maine's site is that the batt. charger should be rated at 10 % of total amp hrs' combined . So I think I need a bigger charger as I think mine is 20 amp.

    So that should do me for sitting at the dock . So for away from the dock .

    My 80 amp alt. is new and working fine it would seem , but I was informed by a marine electronics guy that I was sold a piece of junk and there was no way it was putting out 80 amps . and would certainly catch fire . So I'm kind of thinking about a US made Lecee Neville alt . and a external smart regulator . And lastly a 100 watt. solar panel and the best MPPT regulator there is . 

    So all that and my new knowledge of how to care for and treat batteries . I think I should be good . Hows it sound to you ?  

    Last modified: March 20, 2016 4:08 PM | Anonymous member
  • March 20, 2016 10:28 PM
    Reply # 3893042 on 3889865
    Deleted user

    For the Solar charge controller, I am using a Blue Sky Solar Boost 2000E 25 amp controller with MPPT.  The MPPT adds a lot to the price and not sure it is worth it but it does work.  I picked it becuase it had the display built in.  Others require a separate display.  I am using two 100 watt Grape Panels.  $150 each from costco, free shipping.  The way mine are mounted, really only one panel works at a time due to shading. If i get both in the sun then recharging goes quick. I picked up my cables for the panels from Newegg.  Nice waterproof connectors compatible with the connectors on the panels.

  • March 21, 2016 6:39 AM
    Reply # 3894066 on 3889865

    Mark,

    If I may as I'm currently performing an overhaul on the entire electrical, the best solution I found for simplicity in a battery monitor is the "Balmar SmartGauge Monitor."

    It is a daunting $285 purchase, but I am extremely happy with it because it is simple.  It displays 3 things: House battery voltage, House battery state of charge (SOC), and Engine battery voltage.  It learns the house batteries so the more the batteries are charged and discharged it becomes more and more accurate, and it has error codes for high or low voltage, loss of power, etc.  It also changes with age of the battery because as batteries age the get less tolerant of high and low voltages etc. etc.

    My system are 2 T105's, 1 30XHS (all Trojan), 40 amp 3 stage smart charger, MPPT solar controller, and for now a 85W panel until I figure out what I really need. 

    Furthermore on those lines, it never hurts to experiment with smaller parts if available so one may hone in on what they need, but it is a system and a balance between usage, capacity, and availability.  I have friends that go to the extremes, spent piles of money, and then think about how they are actually going to consume the energy they generate and store ... tis silly.

    Best,

    T. 

     

  • March 21, 2016 9:43 AM
    Reply # 3894522 on 3889865
    Deleted user

    Mark:

    you are on the right track    edited (for the new alt and charger I would put those - low on your list, but as Dick said you need to have one system to de-Sulphate the bats )

    Some notes

     One issue ( junk alternator note) is engine RPM it is much cheaper to build a high RPM 80 amp unit, than to wind it for a low 1800 RPM and the same 80 amp. I had my alt wound here in Oakland by a small shop they did a rebuild of an older unit which has worked well; it is noted to be 110amp But I have only gotten 92  to 98 Amps at 1800 rpm out of it, but it can charge for hours and hours at that rate. I needed that, to fill up my bigger bank I normally used 140 to 180 AH between charges. It will do the 110 amps but I need 2700rpm which I do not motor at.

    On the Balmar side I have had NO luck, I mean NO luck at all. bought high $$ alt and High $$ control both burned up when I lost a plate in the battery. My opinion is Balmar is a POS! After reading your link. I do have to fess up, I burn my Batteries down to 50% of there New Ah not his 80% #. But I am still at the 80% 7 years out if I take care of them. The article is a good writeup, but he missed on the top off with distilled H2O ONLY! and not much on trickle/condition info but good info.

    The newer solar controllers are worth it, as my old morning star controller is getting only 90% of what it could be, put into the bat's. Long ago I had thought of making (add on cell to make ) a 14v bat to solar charge and DC/DC to the main bats; but with the new chargers = problem solved.

    The 10% thing is +/- correct if you go AGM I would go 12%+ if you can, but note: If you are at only 8% and at shore you can get buy OK.  If you leave your boat for weeks at the dock they make a 2 amp trickle/conditioner charger which works pretty good as long as you do not bring the batteries back low and your running load is below 1 Amp which may not be true from your first posting. Oh for trickle you should be at 1% to 2% of the AH in amp rating i.e for 160 AH  a 2 amp "controlled" trickle is fine, but for 550 not so great as they do not match.

    Lastly there are 3 systems to think about

    1.) Engine and charge controller (I prefer the old Ample but that is because I am old and it seams to work well all the time) the alt with built in control are cheap, and can work, but the remote one gives you many more options, and can do a much better job. Also note AGM's Can suck as much as the alt can put out, so if AGM go with the biggest alt you can (mine does take power = 1 to 2 hp from the prop when loaded down, seams like more) 

    2.) Shore power charger (either trickle or a full charger) I have a full charger the old freedom 1500 charge/inverter/link system and this has worked well for some time, but Freedom was bought out years ago. so ? 

    3.) Solar (for trickle under 2% AH in amps you could run direct "with switch for of on/off" but if larger, use one of the newer controllers for good eff.) also note: fixed solar installs seam to be shaded 30 - 50% of the time I have four old 80watt panels but seldom see more than 5 to 15  amps. but mid day with the boom out and the cockpit facing south I have seen the 22Amps. but with the boom shadow,  NOT going to happen  ,but for a couple of min at most then back to 15-16 amps then only 4-5 Amps after 4PM. With all four panels I get about 40 to 50 amp hours/day sailing and about 50 to 70 at the dock. Note: the charge control will stop the charging if you try charge more than you use, thus make having more panels a total waste.


    Edited;

    Opps I forgot to note: (I can equalize with the first two systems)

    also Dick did a great writeup below! but I still like the mppt's and movable panels.

    For the Balmar issue; it was designed to fail (the controller was completely encased (potted) in epoxy = not much thermal x-fer = designed to fail from heat in the internal parts). The alt was nothing special! and was epoxy coated (again bad thermal transfer and some not well done internal connections)  FYI in the early days I was a Chump for the slick add's  but after a couple of theses, I did really start to think about each item and ask myself does it make sense (thermal, mech, elec, croosion,strength, etc.) thinking for your self is the best friend you can have. 50% of what you read is BS but I hope that # is much lower here on the WOA. 

    Last modified: March 22, 2016 9:57 AM | Deleted user
  • March 21, 2016 6:13 PM
    Reply # 3899209 on 3889865

    Hi guys thanks for all the great responses , I read every word twice .  

    Tyler , Jim , you have done a 1st. class job with Cecilia Belle . Interesting that you have 2, 6 V and one 12 V batt. what 12 V draws do you have ? Like reefer / Radar ?

    Bummer about the Balmar Norm .

    Thanks again all . Mark .

    Last modified: March 21, 2016 6:26 PM | Anonymous member
  • March 22, 2016 7:17 AM
    Reply # 3900135 on 3889865

    Mark,

    6V batteries are your true deep cycle battery.  They take more abuse in discharge, and accept more current when being charged, however I wouldn't recommend them unless you were going to install a good charger like my Sterling Power (which I bought from Mainesail).  They like lower discharge rates and will last a long time, but will not like being used as a starting battery like your typical "deep cycle" 12V etc. etc.

    "Boatowner's Illustrated Electrical Handbook" by Charlie Wing is a great reference and he goes into enough detail with regards to all batteries available, except LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate).  It discusses the importance of optimized charge profiles, maintenance, economics of each battery type.  With regard to $$/Watt used over time, the 6V is hands down the most economical option over time, but they must be charged correctly and watered, else they will not be the most economical .. one pays for convenience.

    I looked at every option available in excruciating detail trying to optimize etc, and this is where I ended up.  That's not to say I may double my bank in the future (series parallel on 4 6V's); which is why I sized my charger for that size, but until I try it I will not know if I need it.  Adding batteries is relatively easy.

    Oh, and a good battery monitor as I've suggested the Balmar SmartGauge.

    Draws: Refrig, LED lighting, stereo, SSB, VHF, diesel heater, tiller pilot, ... , I've kept it simple for many reasons personal and practical.

    Best,

    T.

    P.S. Thanks for the kind words ... tis been a journey, and I seek more distant horizons .. :)

     

    Last modified: March 22, 2016 7:20 AM | Anonymous member
  • March 22, 2016 8:05 AM
    Reply # 3900170 on 3889865

    Thanks Mark for giving us the chance to chip in on a favorite topic for boat owners (rivaled only by discussions about anchors).  I’d like to argue for balancing your budget with your needs.

    Some people day sail only, some stay attached to shore power 5 days a week, then cruise on weekends, some (like myself) live on the hook 7x365 and almost never get to shore power.   It makes no sense for one-size-fits-all advice for such diverse needs.

    Unless you abuse your batteries (by draining to 11.5), the #1 cause of short life is sulphation.  You must have  a way to desulphate (also called equalize).  But you may have three choices (alternator charge control, shore charging control, solar/wind panel control) for how to accomplish it. You only need one of those three.  You may have a 4th choice if someone at the marina has a portable charger with equalize that you can borrow, or share.  But if your boat floats on shore power 5 days a week, and you sail 2 days, then sulphation builds up only 2/7 as fast, so you need the equalization only 2/7 as often.

    Match the amp rating of your shore power and your alternator to your use pattern.  If you stay on shore power for 24 hours or more at a time, or if you run your engine 8 hours or more at a time, then you don’t need so many amps.

    Solar panels today are twice as good (in watts/ft^2 and in $/watt) than 3 years ago.  They are expected to double again in the next 3 years.  Therefore, I cannot get excited about spending a lot of money to find the best brand.   In my plans, anything I buy today, I’ll junk and replace within 4 years.

    One thing that improved particularly well in the past couple of years are roll-up flexible panels that you can simply plug in when you need them, then roll up for storage when you don’t.  That would be great for occasional weekend sailors.  You should look into that.

    Controllers:  If your panel puts out less than 2 amps max, then you need no controller at all.  If it makes 2-8 amps, then West Marine’s cheapest $19 charge controller is all you need.  A 40A non-MPPT controller can be had for about $120.  Fully MPPT controllers maximize the efficiency of the system for $100-$200 more.   But since the $/watt of panels is so low today, I think it makes more sense to buy more watts than to buy MPPT.   Remember, in 4 years, you’ll have still more efficient panels, making the MPPT controller benefits even less.   Once your system can fully recharge your batteries in typical weather, then there is no  benefit to added efficiency.

    So, what do I actually have on Tarwathie?

    2x group 31 batteries.  I pay about $110 each for them.  Trojan batteries cost twice as much but their warranty is identical to the cheap ones.  I will not spend twice as much until Trojan backs up their claims of higher quality in a written warranty.  

    50A alternator with old-fashioned dumb control.

    2x80 plus 1x50 solar panels (205 watts total).

    40A solar/wind controller with 3-stage and equalize cycles.  I leave it set to equalize automatically every 30 days.  Last year I left the boat for 5 months, with the fridge turned on, and powered by the panels. (My fridge has gone 6 years with zero coolant leak, but if I turn it off the coolant leaks out in a week.)  When I came back, the water in the battery cells was very low (because of the 5x equalize cycles with no replenishment of water.)  It would be nice to have a programmable controller where you can set the equalizing frequency, duration and voltage yourself. 

    On sunny days, my batteries are fully recharged by 1100. On mostly cloudy days they are recharged by 1700.  Given two or more consecutive days with thick clouds, I need to run my engine.  I like to run the engine at least once every 15 days in any case.  

    Next year, I plan to replace those three panels with a single 240 watt panel.  4-5 years from now, I’ll junk the 240 and replace it with another 240 half the size.

    An 8A Genius shore power charger with 3-stage and equalize.

    On my wish list is a battery watering system.

    Hope this helps Mark. Thanks for asking the question.


  • March 22, 2016 10:05 AM
    Reply # 3900285 on 3889865

    Tyler , I'm going to get that book you recommend . At least for now 6 V is not for us , I'm starting to understand the benefits but for now in order to do it right it would not be in the budget .  

    However good news , I had a meeting with the budget department and it was agreed that solar panels are the way to go for when we are away from the dock for extended periods of time witch is usually 10-14 days at a time . Although a reefer is not on the list , we do pretty well with the stock ice box that is molded into the boat , it has a well in it that will accept a large block of ice and then we just add cubed as needed . As long as we keep the small cubes in there the large block lasts a very long time . We also have a separate Igloo type chest that we only go into once or twice a day .

    Dick , I know what you mean about panel technology getting better , For what I'm thinking of ( 50 watt panel and a MPPT Genasun controller ) will only be around $300 .

    Group 31 for $ 110 . that is a good price . I have decided on  getting 2 Trojan  group 27 115 AH . They cost $160 . ea .  I was thinking about going the group 30 route but at 80 lbs. ea. it is a bit too much . 

    I'm really enjoying this conversation , thanks guys . Mark

    Last modified: March 22, 2016 10:06 AM | Anonymous member
  • March 23, 2016 2:35 PM
    Reply # 3902546 on 3889865
    Deleted user

    Mark:

    If you are only using one 50 watt panel I don't think you need a controller. At max sun you are at 2% of the 2 batteries which = a trickle charge +/-  base on my past, you should be getting about 7 to 20 Amp hours from the 50 watt panel (always in the sun)  the bleed on the batteries should be around 2Amp hours / day so that leaves you with 5 to 18 for use. An anchor light may take 12 Ah away so you don't have allot to worry about on the over charge side.

    Fixed panel = (50 watts /12V) best case; less if 18V so 2.7 to 4 amps charging, for 8 hours/day  =   21.6 to 32 Ah * 30% average contact angle for fixed = 6.84 to 10 Ah / Day but double if you point the panel every hour. The controller may add an extra 0.1 to 0.9 Ah / day = not worth much. but if you have 300Watts in Panels  that number is 6 times or .6 to 3.6Ah/ day which is good for a couple extra hours of light or ? 

    You could just wait for the controller until you buy more panels.?

    But in any case have fun with what ever you do. 

    And with the new bats and panel you should be able to motor every 3rd day and be fine and not let the batteries go below 11.9 (my pref is not below 12.05). as long as the tv watching does not go up in hours (also when not using the Inverter you unplug it right?)

    Last modified: March 23, 2016 2:43 PM | Deleted user
  • March 23, 2016 6:55 PM
    Reply # 3902855 on 3889865

    Norm  buddy , this is excellent info . Thanks so much , actually nothing is set in cement right now . And I'm thinking a 50 watt panel would be a waste of time . Prolly I should be thinking more like 100 watt min. Genasun makes a MPPT controller that is compatible with a 100-140 watt. panel and its only $98.00    https://www.altestore.com/store/charge-controllers/solar-charge-controllers/mppt-solar-charge-controllers/genasun-solar-charge-controllers/genasun-gv-10-pb-12v-105a-mppt-controller-for-12v-lead-acid-batteries-p10626/

    Because I have only just started thinking about solar I'am really liken' every ones input .

     Here are some things I think ... a Kyocera multicrystalline 140 watt.  panel coupled with a Genasun GV 10 MPPT controller  would be a good investment . Polycrystilline with a PWM controller is not worth the $$ savings . 

    Haha , I know I'm all over the place but I'm just getting started . Ain't life great ? Mark .

    Last modified: March 23, 2016 6:56 PM | Anonymous member
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