Keel shoe...stainless or bronze?

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  • January 05, 2014 3:36 PM
    Message # 1468304
    Anonymous
    After four very cold swims last summer (in Maine) to free lobster trap warp from between my keel and  rudder, I think it's time for a protective "shoe" to close the gap between the rudder and keel.  I'm not sure yet what the design will look like, but should I use bronze or stainless to fabricate the guard?  What are the issues?  Can anyone suggest a non-metal alternative design?  Thanks. 
  • January 05, 2014 4:42 PM
    Reply # 1468340 on 1468304
    Deleted user
    During haul-out last summer we had a shoe fabricated from 316 stainless and through bolted it to the keel just forward of the gap between rudder and keel.  This was in preparation for sailing around Prince Edward Island and all the lobster traps.  If you like I'll take a photo as soon as the snow melts in the boatyard --- right now there's about 2 ft around the boat.
  • January 05, 2014 6:23 PM
    Reply # 1468379 on 1468304
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Paul:  
    I'm hoping that this will do the trick on Pygmalion:) at least it's non metal! 

    Photo
    Last modified: January 05, 2014 6:24 PM | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • January 05, 2014 10:28 PM
    Reply # 1468450 on 1468304
    Deleted user
    Here is the what we did when we did the Dave King modifications, probably the single best improvement we've done to our Westsail. It's made of fiberglass. We've just arrived in San Diego from San Francisco.  There were more crap pots form San Francisco to Monterrey then we have we have ever seen.  We were told by local crab fishermen in Half Moon Bay this is because of allowing crabbers come down from the pacific north west.  In So. Cal we're dealing with lobster pots and herring nets right in front of the harbors.  We are as careful as we can be and don't think we have gone over any lines, but if we do this should do the job.  Nothing is 100% as you can still suck in a loose line by the prop.

    Jim

     







  • January 06, 2014 4:48 PM
    Reply # 1469080 on 1468304
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    So has anyone figure out a way to cut loose the rope/line/fishing around the prop/shaft w/o getting in the water? 

    It's been a question since I heard Dave King's tell how he had to dive and remove fishing line around the prop/shaft in mid Pacific. Very dangerous and cold operation for sure.

    I've used a bread knife from a dingy to cut free a dingy painter - all safe and sound at a dock. 

    I've though that a heavy serrated knife on the end of a boat hook might be an alternative to diving.  Maybe modified pruning hooks?

    Thoughts?

    Jay

     

    Last modified: January 06, 2014 4:49 PM | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • January 07, 2014 7:58 PM
    Reply # 1470498 on 1468304
    Anonymous
    Jay, what is the purpose of that horizontal fin on the back of the keel?
  • January 07, 2014 10:16 PM
    Reply # 1470559 on 1468304
    Deleted user
    Gary: I will field that question (I think; I may have talked Jay into it)

    The fin functions in three ways 

    1.) It works to reduce the pitching  (my smaller fin works above 6Kts+ and knocks off about 15% of the pitching +/-) blow that speed the water does not stay attached and it does not seam to do to much.

    2.) It improves the slipstream (kind of like the wingtips on the lear 55 jet) +/-

    3.) Improve tracking - and roll reduction  (like # 2 this has to do with the flow from downwind to upwind across the bottom of the keel)   to this end I am not sure we gained much i.e. I have not measured this in any real way, there may be some but ??

    Jays' is a bit bigger than mine (we attempted to reduce the speed at which it starts to make a difference and to make a bigger effect)  I still need to follow up with Jay on this, and to measure the real change in pitching (std w32 , my small fin , and Jays larger fin ) same day same conditions type of test. I would also like to see if it effects the squat when under heavy motor (I think Jay had some pictures under motor and it seamed that his stern was not as deep in the water?? this could have been weight related but maybe this summer I can buddy sail with him and look into this more?

    Oh lastly; in a forward direction it would keep lines a little farther out from the prop +/- as they went buy.  The stink pots call this a beaver tail I think.

    Hope this covers the question.
    Norm

    p.s.  Jay from my experience with a yard sweep and blackberry vines, a sharp object at a right angle to the shaft (chisel ? on the end of a boat hook and a hammer on the other end?? may do the trick But one would have to take great care and I don't think you could do this mid ocean rocking in the big waves) (they make a cutter that looks like a spur gear that mounts on the shaft and is suppose to cut lines, but I don't have any experience with them)
    Last modified: January 07, 2014 10:34 PM | Deleted user
  • January 08, 2014 12:29 PM
    Reply # 1470927 on 1468304
    Anonymous
    Interesting, thanks for the reply Norm. 
    My concern would be that it would cause the boat to sail nose down, as the water in that area is moving upwards as it rounds the bilge and is compressed, wont it want to flow up? Also,could it cause more resistance to the water in a fore and aft direction as the boat is going to pitch no matter what.?
  • January 08, 2014 5:20 PM
    Reply # 1471140 on 1468304
    Anonymous

    Thank you all for your responses.  Jay, your fin is an interesting addition both in theory and form.  It looks like it would solve my lobster trap warp problem but I suspect it might not survive the occasional intentional low tide groundings I do for bottom cleaning. 

    Though I don't know, I suspect the rudder pivot pins are bronze (as opposed to stainless) and would be happiest along side a bronze keel shoe.

    Does anyone know if the lowest aft end of the keel is solid or hollow so I can plan mechanical fastenings to hold the shoe?

  • January 08, 2014 8:03 PM
    Reply # 1471206 on 1468304
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Lots to talk about ! 

    I'm hoping to compare with Norm - this summer would be great.  Hard to get the boats together to compare - maybe include Randy Leasure's Tortuga in the event - he has the modified hull and is fully loaded - as  a live aboard.  Maybe we plan for using matching sails on the same heading at the same time and place... would be a good test.

    What I notice is that under power say above 2000 RPM (at what I consider cruising rpm) the bow will lift noticably and go down when I ease off the power.  Meaning - I'm not sure.

    Under sail very hard to know by feel if the fin really reduces pitching -- if the waves are just right and with our wide bow (IMHO) the boat will pitch.  We don't cut throught the waves at all.

    Paul:  The fiberglass tail is just epoxied to the bottom of the hull and my impression was that the whole area aft is solid or very thick.  I don't have any mechanical fasteners in the joint.  I also sat on the mud very nicely in San Leandro marina at low tide. 

    Norm: I have this large SS knife - I'm considering modifying the blade to be serrated so I could saw through whatever was around the prop - like a spear?  I know that I couldn't do what DK had to accomplish.

    Gary:  The tail is well foiled but keeping it clean top and bottom - is an issue and I'm left at the divers mercy to do a good job.  I wasn't at the boat when it was last pulled so I don't have any pics.  The drag issue is a real concern..

    I hope to have the time, money and energy to fair the hull - the fat rudder that is off set and the fixed blad prop really needs to be fixed...

    Jay

    Last modified: January 08, 2014 8:20 PM | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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