Forestay and jib luff tension

  • February 11, 2011 7:56 AM
    Reply # 520364 on 517421
    Anonymous
    Thanks for that Werner. I had thought that the yankee would have been better performance wise than the staysail, when used alone. Good to know!

  • February 12, 2011 8:34 AM
    Reply # 520983 on 517421
    Deleted user
    Thanks for the commentary Dave. I was unaware of Kern Ferguson's dictum that luff is a friend and foot is an enemy, but that explains why he recommended and build a new Yankee for Bloodhound with a luff all the way to the masthead, and a shorter foot (same area as previously).  New Yankee and stays'l are a real treat; what a difference!  I know my forestay is too loose as well --- loosened up after changing out a boomkin and I failed to retension it.  Also don't have enough luff tension but my old Mariner furler stiiffens up at the swivel with too much tension so I live with a little less performance.
  • February 18, 2011 8:20 AM
    Reply # 528616 on 517421
    The guy I bought my boat from thought he had a working jib, but I could never find it in the lockers or sail bags he gave me. If I had one, I was wondering if it might be possible to sheet it inside the shrouds, and whether that would improve the ability of the boat to sail into the wind. Has anyone tried this?
  • February 18, 2011 3:26 PM
    Reply # 528901 on 517421
    Hi Gary,

    The boat looks great! First off, don't feel bad that you're worried about sails. Most of us don't sail in 25+ often, so that wind feels like a LOT.

    My thoughts:

    1) A general rule, in high wind make is to make your sails FLAT. Think of a plane; when they take-off and land, they put the flaps down to give the wings extra curve, thereby giving the wing more lift at slow speed. But they can't go fast with the flaps down, so they make the wings flatter by retracting the flaps, thus enabling faster flight. It works the same way with sails, reducing heel (and its inefficiencies), and allowing more speed. Here are some ways to do this:
    • Increase luff tension for all sails. This helps to flatten the draft (the maximum depth of the curve of your sail.) Even in light wind you should not see 'scallops' as you can in the photos. In high wind, the scallops can be dangerous for your sail (not to mention very inefficient); the little eyelets your hank and cars are attached to are taking a LOT of load. Use luff tension to keep most of the load of your sail between the tack and head (the halyard and luffline should take most strain, NOT your hanks and headstay!) Proper luff tension is KEY to performance. Here is a photo of a main which is properly tensioned on the luff and foot for high wind; it's quite flat.
    • Increase foot tension for all sails. For your main, use your outhaul too get the foot tight (this is when it is important to have comfortable size line and good purchase on your outhaul!) Tightening the foot of a sail moves the draft forward; the draft is where the wind is pulling on your sail. If you move it forward, you move that sail's center of effort forward, thereby decreasing weather helm and heal. For headsails, moving the sheet lead aft increases foot tension; in the photos, the lead to your jib is much too far forward. Experiment with fairlead position (your sheet cars) to see how it affects the draft of your sail. Here is a photo of a cutter that shows GOOD sheet leads for the weather. The foot is tighter on both headsails!  Note, DO NOT simply "sheet in" your foresails to make the foot tight.
    • In the case of a reefed main, a properly positioned reefing cheek block should make the foot tight enough. It is VERY common, however, for people to have new sails made (or buy used) without regard for the reef point's regard to the jiffy/slab block's positions. The reefing line should be pulling about 45-60* AFT, and the rest down. This keeps the foot tight. If the reefing system isn't getting your foot tight, you can rig a line (a lizard, as it would be called) between your main outhaul and reef outhaul; use a butterfly knot and rolling hitch to get purchase to pull the foot tight. Use another line (in this case, a strop), to tie the clew down to the boom. Here is a photo of a reefed main that has adequate foot tension.
    2) Sheet your sails OUT! In the photos where you are very near a TRUE beam reach, your sails are sheeted in for a high close reach. (Yes, on a true beam reach you are probably sailing in the APPARENT close reach area, but your sails are still too tight!)
    • You were probably trying to keep them from luffing; with the luff and foot tensions so loose, your sails will luff easily. Once you fix those things, sheet your headsails out until they luff (the actual luff of your sail is puckering in), then bring them in just a smidgen. A LITTLE bit of luffing is OK!
    • In this wind, a good, solid main boom vang is important for low-weather helm performance. If you don't have a vang and sheet your main out to where it really should be, it doesn't matter how well tuned the luff and foot are, the boom will rise up, slacking the leech, ruining shape and allowing the sail to luff and flog. Sheet your mainsail out to where it should be, then tighten the vang; this pulls the boom down and keep's the main's shape in check. Coupled with luff/foot tension, you should be able to get a VERY flat shape. 
    • In old days booms were very heavy, often weighing enough to keep the sail flat when reefed. This is where the idea comes from that in high wind you should let your leech slacken to spill wind. But with our light aluminum booms, it's important to control the shape with a boom vang.
    In general, sailors oversheet their sails. We have this chronic fear of luffing, brought on by reading and anal instructors who were taut that any movement on the luff of a sail is BAD. A properly trimmed mainsail SHOULD consistently "breathe"; there is a big mast right in front of that edge of the sail that introduces a LOT of turbulence! The area directly behind the mast (the true luff) should have a healthy movement in and out (no joke, called breathing) all the time. The only exception being, perhaps, when close ahuled. It is the DRAFT of the sail that should not be luffing! A masted sail is said to be "luffing" when the draft of the sail is luffing, not when the area of the luff (noun) of the sail is moving in and out. Here is a photo I took that shows true "luffing" - you can see that the draft (or curve) of the sail is being compromised.

    Check out the US Sailing Online Sailing Courses website. It's free and there are a lot of good diagrams and helpful descriptions.

    OK, back to trumpet land. I leave Sunday for the trail of trials; six auditions in six days! Wish me luck!

    ~Aaron N.


    Last modified: February 18, 2011 3:26 PM | Anonymous member
  • February 18, 2011 3:41 PM
    Reply # 528918 on 528616
    Frank Scalfano wrote: ...I was wondering if it might be possible to sheet it inside the shrouds, and whether that would improve the ability of the boat to sail into the wind...


    Frank, I don't think it would help too much. The boats that have inboard shrouds may be able to point a bit higher, but not just because they can sheet in more; a lot has to do with the hull and its ability to transfer the wind energy into forward motion. I've been able to make very good progress to windward; about 40* made good in flat water and about 15kts. The key is proper sail tensions, leads, and sheeting. Especially in those conditions, with full main, stays'l and yankee, it's important to keep your stays'l undersheeted to help it fill the yankee, while not making the main back.

    Good luck,
    Aaron
  • February 18, 2011 5:19 PM
    Reply # 528968 on 528901
    Anonymous
    Aaron Norlund wrote: Hi Gary,

    The boat looks great! First off, don't feel bad that you're worried about sails. Most of us don't sail in 25+ often, so that wind feels like a LOT.

    My thoughts:

    1) A general rule, in high wind make is to make your sails FLAT. Think of a plane; when they take-off and land, they put the flaps down to give the wings extra curve, thereby giving the wing more lift at slow speed. But they can't go fast with the flaps down, so they make the wings flatter by retracting the flaps, thus enabling faster flight. It works the same way with sails, reducing heel (and its inefficiencies), and allowing more speed. Here are some ways to do this:
    • Increase luff tension for all sails. This helps to flatten the draft (the maximum depth of the curve of your sail.) Even in light wind you should not see 'scallops' as you can in the photos. In high wind, the scallops can be dangerous for your sail (not to mention very inefficient); the little eyelets your hank and cars are attached to are taking a LOT of load. Use luff tension to keep most of the load of your sail between the tack and head (the halyard and luffline should take most strain, NOT your hanks and headstay!) Proper luff tension is KEY to performance. Here is a photo of a main which is properly tensioned on the luff and foot for high wind; it's quite flat.
    • Increase foot tension for all sails. For your main, use your outhaul too get the foot tight (this is when it is important to have comfortable size line and good purchase on your outhaul!) Tightening the foot of a sail moves the draft forward; the draft is where the wind is pulling on your sail. If you move it forward, you move that sail's center of effort forward, thereby decreasing weather helm and heal. For headsails, moving the sheet lead aft increases foot tension; in the photos, the lead to your jib is much too far forward. Experiment with fairlead position (your sheet cars) to see how it affects the draft of your sail. Here is a photo of a cutter that shows GOOD sheet leads for the weather. The foot is tighter on both headsails!  Note, DO NOT simply "sheet in" your foresails to make the foot tight.
    • In the case of a reefed main, a properly positioned reefing cheek block should make the foot tight enough. It is VERY common, however, for people to have new sails made (or buy used) without regard for the reef point's regard to the jiffy/slab block's positions. The reefing line should be pulling about 45-60* AFT, and the rest down. This keeps the foot tight. If the reefing system isn't getting your foot tight, you can rig a line (a lizard, as it would be called) between your main outhaul and reef outhaul; use a butterfly knot and rolling hitch to get purchase to pull the foot tight. Use another line (in this case, a strop), to tie the clew down to the boom. Here is a photo of a reefed main that has adequate foot tension.
    2) Sheet your sails OUT! In the photos where you are very near a TRUE beam reach, your sails are sheeted in for a high close reach. (Yes, on a true beam reach you are probably sailing in the APPARENT close reach area, but your sails are still too tight!)
    • You were probably trying to keep them from luffing; with the luff and foot tensions so loose, your sails will luff easily. Once you fix those things, sheet your headsails out until they luff (the actual luff of your sail is puckering in), then bring them in just a smidgen. A LITTLE bit of luffing is OK!
    • In this wind, a good, solid main boom vang is important for low-weather helm performance. If you don't have a vang and sheet your main out to where it really should be, it doesn't matter how well tuned the luff and foot are, the boom will rise up, slacking the leech, ruining shape and allowing the sail to luff and flog. Sheet your mainsail out to where it should be, then tighten the vang; this pulls the boom down and keep's the main's shape in check. Coupled with luff/foot tension, you should be able to get a VERY flat shape. 
    • In old days booms were very heavy, often weighing enough to keep the sail flat when reefed. This is where the idea comes from that in high wind you should let your leech slacken to spill wind. But with our light aluminum booms, it's important to control the shape with a boom vang.
    In general, sailors oversheet their sails. We have this chronic fear of luffing, brought on by reading and anal instructors who were taut that any movement on the luff of a sail is BAD. A properly trimmed mainsail SHOULD consistently "breathe"; there is a big mast right in front of that edge of the sail that introduces a LOT of turbulence! The area directly behind the mast (the true luff) should have a healthy movement in and out (no joke, called breathing) all the time. The only exception being, perhaps, when close ahuled. It is the DRAFT of the sail that should not be luffing! A masted sail is said to be "luffing" when the draft of the sail is luffing, not when the area of the luff (noun) of the sail is moving in and out. Here is a photo I took that shows true "luffing" - you can see that the draft (or curve) of the sail is being compromised.

    Check out the US Sailing Online Sailing Courses website. It's free and there are a lot of good diagrams and helpful descriptions.

    OK, back to trumpet land. I leave Sunday for the trail of trials; six auditions in six days! Wish me luck!

    ~Aaron N.


    Aaron - thanks for taking the time to write all that down! It is truly appreciated.
    Good luck for your auditions :)
  • February 26, 2011 7:23 PM
    Reply # 533789 on 517421
    Anonymous
    OK - so today I had an opportunity to try again. This time there was ~7' swell and 25k gusting to 30k wind as measured by the NOAA buoy. I raised the main with one reef and full staysail. At 60 degree apparent wind we were consistently at 6.9 ~ 7.1 knots boat speed and staying dry. Much better. I did sheet out the main quite a bit to keep the boat from heeling too much. Made the mistake of trying to raise the main with both running back rigged and the sail got stuck behind. Live and learn.

    No photos today as no-one else was out.
  • February 27, 2011 11:30 AM
    Reply # 534060 on 520314
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Gary Burton wrote: Yowza. I have removed the piece of leather from my mouth.
    Thanks for the assessment Dave! I don't have a good reason why the yankee was up and not the staysail. Perhaps subconsciously I was protecting my new staysail... that yankee cost $100.

    The boat that took the pictures was a trawler so don't worry, the skipper was a clueless as me when it comes to trim and boat speed! There were not any other sailboats out. 
    I have not checked my knotmeter and was not watching the GPS... so will check and compare next time.
    The luff on the staysail will be shorter than the yankee though...is it a relative thing when compared to the foot length? 
    I guess you mean the staysail adds 30' of luff when used with the yankee



    Gary: I was photographing Saraband as she and Dave left the SF bay on the SHTP last year.  I was purposely slower so he could pass me upwind as I photographed the boat... After he passed and tacked once - the pedal went down and Saraband sped off - no way I could have kept up - and we have the same boat -- but different sailors!!.

    Dave King images

    Jay

  • February 27, 2011 1:12 PM
    Reply # 534109 on 517421
    Anonymous
    How fast were you going Jay, and what kind of apparent wind and heading?
  • February 27, 2011 4:37 PM
    Reply # 534201 on 517421
    Deleted user
    This promises to be a great thread.  I'm all ears and eyes.  We don't get enough wind (and no "seas") for me even to have had to reef the mainsail, although we're all rigged to do so when needed.  Perhaps some practice in calm conditions would be well advised!
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