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Water tank corrosion? Is this tank history?

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  • March 24, 2011 3:55 PM
    Quote
    Message # 552828
    Anonymous


    I placed my camera into the bilge to get a picture of my water tank. This is what I found.
    To me it looks like the crack from hell and could in part be responsible for high water level in my bilge. Is my tank toast?    

    Eric
    W28 Clementine
    Last modified: March 24, 2011 3:55 PM | Anonymous
  • March 26, 2011 8:34 AM
    Quote
    Reply # 554813 on 552828
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Eric Olander wrote:

    I placed my camera into the bilge to get a picture of my water tank. This is what I found.
    To me it looks like the crack from hell and could in part be responsible for high water level in my bilge. Is my tank toast?    

    Eric
    W28 Clementine
    Eric:  
    I would agree that the tank needs to be either replaced or removed and repaired as that will put water in your bilge -- as will leaking caprails.  Pygmalion is very dry once I fixed the caprails.  I'd ask Bud about Poly tanks - which are working great in Pygmalion.
    Jay
  • March 27, 2011 8:33 AM
    Quote
    Reply # 555250 on 554813
    Deleted user
    Jay Bietz wrote:
    Eric Olander wrote:

    I placed my camera into the bilge to get a picture of my water tank. This is what I found.
    To me it looks like the crack from hell and could in part be responsible for high water level in my bilge. Is my tank toast?    

    Eric
    W28 Clementine
    Eric:  
    I would agree that the tank needs to be either replaced or removed and repaired as that will put water in your bilge -- as will leaking caprails.  Pygmalion is very dry once I fixed the caprails.  I'd ask Bud about Poly tanks - which are working great in Pygmalion.
    Jay
    This is every W28 owner's nightmare.  Because of the placement of the tank, removal requires either trying to cut it into little pieces in situ or cutting out most of the settee mold as the tank is under the settee and sandwiched between the hull on the bottom and the interior liner on the top.  Why hasn't someone invented something like the various radiator stop-leak products that could be used in a potable water tank?  It may be too late for Eric, but if one of you brainiacs out there could get something like this invented before I need it, I'd really appreciate it.

    -Steve
  • March 27, 2011 12:55 PM
    Quote
    Reply # 555430 on 555250
    Anonymous
    Stephen Yoder wrote:
    Jay Bietz wrote:
    Eric Olander wrote:

    I placed my camera into the bilge to get a picture of my water tank. This is what I found.
    To me it looks like the crack from hell and could in part be responsible for high water level in my bilge. Is my tank toast?    

    Eric
    W28 Clementine
    Eric:  
    I would agree that the tank needs to be either replaced or removed and repaired as that will put water in your bilge -- as will leaking caprails.  Pygmalion is very dry once I fixed the caprails.  I'd ask Bud about Poly tanks - which are working great in Pygmalion.
    Jay
    This is every W28 owner's nightmare.  Because of the placement of the tank, removal requires either trying to cut it into little pieces in situ or cutting out most of the settee mold as the tank is under the settee and sandwiched between the hull on the bottom and the interior liner on the top.  Why hasn't someone invented something like the various radiator stop-leak products that could be used in a potable water tank?  It may be too late for Eric, but if one of you brainiacs out there could get something like this invented before I need it, I'd really appreciate it.

    -Steve
    @ Jay, Caprails are definitely leaking so will probably be done before water tank. Since I'll have to acquire those caprail building skills it'll take me a while, looks like I ain't goin sailing this year. drat!

    @ Steve, I think that big smear of black stuff that looks like mastic, along the cracks is an earlier owners attempt at external "stop-leak". The good news is...I'll soon be doing my favorite kind of work...demolition! YAY! 

    What would be the best tool for cutting thick fiberglass? I just  can't see my sawzall tackling this job.  Can a torch be used if I keep fire extinguisher/water handy? Seems kinda crazy with toxic fumes and fire hazard, but but would sure be fast. Never tried to burn fiberglass before, but I'll bet it cut's like butter.
  • March 27, 2011 2:26 PM
    Quote
    Reply # 555467 on 555430
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Eric Olander wrote:
    Stephen Yoder wrote:
    Jay Bietz wrote:
    Eric Olander wrote:

    I placed my camera into the bilge to get a picture of my water tank. This is what I found.
    To me it looks like the crack from hell and could in part be responsible for high water level in my bilge. Is my tank toast?    

    Eric
    W28 Clementine
    Eric:  
    I would agree that the tank needs to be either replaced or removed and repaired as that will put water in your bilge -- as will leaking caprails.  Pygmalion is very dry once I fixed the caprails.  I'd ask Bud about Poly tanks - which are working great in Pygmalion.
    Jay
    This is every W28 owner's nightmare.  Because of the placement of the tank, removal requires either trying to cut it into little pieces in situ or cutting out most of the settee mold as the tank is under the settee and sandwiched between the hull on the bottom and the interior liner on the top.  Why hasn't someone invented something like the various radiator stop-leak products that could be used in a potable water tank?  It may be too late for Eric, but if one of you brainiacs out there could get something like this invented before I need it, I'd really appreciate it.

    -Steve
    @ Jay, Caprails are definitely leaking so will probably be done before water tank. Since I'll have to acquire those caprail building skills it'll take me a while, looks like I ain't goin sailing this year. drat!

    @ Steve, I think that big smear of black stuff that looks like mastic, along the cracks is an earlier owners attempt at external "stop-leak". The good news is...I'll soon be doing my favorite kind of work...demolition! YAY! 

    What would be the best tool for cutting thick fiberglass? I just  can't see my sawzall tackling this job.  Can a torch be used if I keep fire extinguisher/water handy? Seems kinda crazy with toxic fumes and fire hazard, but but would sure be fast. Never tried to burn fiberglass before, but I'll bet it cut's like butter.
    @Eric -- no to the torch on FB - I got a vibrating saw from Harbor Freight - I think they are $39.99 now and a few blades - it's vibrates and you can really control the cut up to a line etc.  Also any regular skill saw would work but no matter what you use dust catching and cleanup are critical as you don't need the glass dust all around the boat - so a good wet/dry shop vac that you can hold/attach near the cutting edge will help a lot.  Also the usual ear and eye protection and a good device to keep the dust out of your lungs- not the cheap white things as this dust is pretty abrasive. 

    Depending on the room you have to work - a sawsall is fine - you just can't use the blades forever as the glass and resin are tough on blades but a good quality blade should work just fine. 

    PS You can sail with a leaky tank and caprails -- just take bottled water for your day trips..

    Jay
  • March 27, 2011 9:26 PM
    Quote
    Reply # 555681 on 552828
    Deleted user
    Eric:

    Never ever ever use a torch to cut fiber glass!!!!!!!!!!! I would add more!! but you get the point. With the above I have to suggest you might spend a small amount of time working with, or for, someone working on FG boats. There are many ways to destroy a boat fast, but there are few ways to repair or restore a boat fast it takes time, some fore thought and $$$$.

    Two recommendations
    1.) If you can find a bladder tank that will fit (You will need to fix the corners of the bladder) You are in great shape you just need to get it in to place.
    2.) If you want to redo the tank use something like a Fein Multimaster (or alike with a carbide blade) tape in a streight line for cutting, and be very very careful so that you can put the glassed section back (you will not build a nicer looking replacement for the glass section than is coming out) If you can add a flange or cleat system for removal of this part you will be in good shape.

    I love the new edit function (WOA BOARD) (I was not recommending the blader for black water as the rupture would be (BAD beyond my tolerance)   but for water, it would be OK as long as you had a backup supply on longer voyages and had the tank fixed at the corners so that is does not slide. 
    Last modified: March 27, 2011 9:26 PM | Deleted user
  • March 28, 2011 5:55 AM
    Quote
    Reply # 555901 on 552828
    Anonymous member
    I second what Norm said about a bladder.  I use a bladder for black water.  It is superior to a rigid tank in all respects.  No air vent is needed with a bladder tank.

    If the dimensions of the bladder are slightly larger than the old tank, it will conform to the confining shape.  If the dimensions are slightly smaller, then you'll lose a bit of capacity, but otherwise no problem.  How slight is slightly?  I guess +/- 30% by volume.

    You may only need to cut a small opening to get the bladder inside the old tank.  If you succeed with a small opening, then the old tank should serve to hold the bladder in place securely.

    Run the plumbing directly to the bladder.  Do not attempt to re-use the hose connections of the old tank.  

    If the bladder material is neoprene, you must never add chlorine to the water.  In any case, make sure the bladder material is safe for drinking water.

    Good Luck
  • March 29, 2011 5:42 AM
    Quote
    Reply # 556791 on 555901
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Dick Mills wrote: I second what Norm said about a bladder.  I use a bladder for black water.  It is superior to a rigid tank in all respects.  No air vent is needed with a bladder tank.

    If the dimensions of the bladder are slightly larger than the old tank, it will conform to the confining shape.  If the dimensions are slightly smaller, then you'll lose a bit of capacity, but otherwise no problem.  How slight is slightly?  I guess +/- 30% by volume.

    You may only need to cut a small opening to get the bladder inside the old tank.  If you succeed with a small opening, then the old tank should serve to hold the bladder in place securely.

    Run the plumbing directly to the bladder.  Do not attempt to re-use the hose connections of the old tank.  

    If the bladder material is neoprene, you must never add chlorine to the water.  In any case, make sure the bladder material is safe for drinking water.

    Good Luck


    @Dick:  I'm interested in the bladder for a holding tank... do you have recommendations for a manufactor? brand you like?  Where did you put the holding tank -- under the fwd V berth?

    Jay
  • March 29, 2011 6:53 PM
    Quote
    Reply # 557318 on 556791
    Deleted user
    Jay Bietz wrote:
    Dick Mills wrote: I second what Norm said about a bladder.  I use a bladder for black water.  It is superior to a rigid tank in all respects.  No air vent is needed with a bladder tank.

    If the dimensions of the bladder are slightly larger than the old tank, it will conform to the confining shape.  If the dimensions are slightly smaller, then you'll lose a bit of capacity, but otherwise no problem.  How slight is slightly?  I guess +/- 30% by volume.

    You may only need to cut a small opening to get the bladder inside the old tank.  If you succeed with a small opening, then the old tank should serve to hold the bladder in place securely.

    Run the plumbing directly to the bladder.  Do not attempt to re-use the hose connections of the old tank.  

    If the bladder material is neoprene, you must never add chlorine to the water.  In any case, make sure the bladder material is safe for drinking water.

    Good Luck


    @Dick:  I'm interested in the bladder for a holding tank... do you have recommendations for a manufactor? brand you like?  Where did you put the holding tank -- under the fwd V berth?

    Jay

    Jay and all, 
      My story with a bladder wasn't as good as Dick's, the first thing that failed on Treasure was the bladder holding tank. I don't know what went wrong that night 15 miles off the coast of WA , a catastrophic blow out and ewwww what a mess. After 24 hours of rough weather and lumpy seas the bladder failure was epoch! Finally getting into Neah Bay. instead of the 12 hour nap I had planned, I spent the next 8 hours cleaning under the v-birth. This bladder was French made but i cannot remember the name ( no doubt a psychological block) We now use a 12 gallon poly holding tank with a vac-u-flush which effectively triples the holding tank capacity, and I don't have to "train" anybody to use it. I'm sure the bladder would be great for a water tank, and maybe for a holding tank, I just didn't want to chance it. 

    Bob on "Treasure"
  • March 30, 2011 5:51 AM
    Quote
    Reply # 557566 on 552828
    Anonymous member
    It is a 15 gallon bladder.   The brand is Nauta, made in France.  I keep it in the V berth in the V-shaped space under the port bunk.   It is not screwed down -- the V shape holds it naturally, and I have a latched door above it to prevent it from rolling out in case of a knock down.  When full, it fills only 1/3 of the volume in that space.  

    The bladder was on the boat when I bought it.  I see no evidence of any other kind of holding tank predecessor, so I must conclude that Tarwathie either had no holding tank or she had a bladder when first built in 1975.  She is a factory built boat -- maybe Bud can recall what holding tank options were offered. 

    The bladder is probably the same brand that Bob reported failed on him.  Why did his fail and mine didn't?  My best speculation is that when at sea, I always pump the bladder dry, and leave the Y valve in the sea position.  Therefore, heavy weather and a full bladder never coincide.  Indeed, if I was making an ocean crossing, I would leave the bladder empty and fill up that V-berth space with other stuff. 

    The advantages of a bladder became apparent this winter here in Marathon.  Someone announced a new enzyme product on the cruisers net.  It was said to dissolve holding sludge that causes odors.  The sludge won't pump out so it gradually reduces the effective capacity of the tank.  Someone else suggested that cruisers get together to make a bulk purchase of a case of 12 bottles.  It mushroomed, and within a week they had to order 15 cases for the boats in the harbor.   Evidently, odors and reduced capacity are routine problems for conventional rigid tanks.  Not so for my bladder.

    Disadvantages include vulnerability to any product containing chlorine, and overfilling.  If overfilled (and unvented), it pressurizes like a balloon.  Then, when the deck fitting is unscrewed for pump out, it results in a geyser of black water -- yuck.  Never happened to me yet.

    Here's a picture of my installation at a time when the bladder is only 20% full. You can see head, pump-out and vent connections, but the vent hose is plugged (no vent is needed). My view was standing in the V-berth, holding the cushion and cover open and pointing the camera down and port.
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